Camille & Rhea | Inside the Global Plastics Treaty with Valentin Dettling

00:00:05: So good morning, good afternoon or good evening.

00:00:09: Today it's episode two in GenC Podcasts with your new favorite hosts Ria and Camille.

00:00:16: And today our episodes will focus on the plastic treaty Because every minute we have the equivalent of a garbage truck that entered the oceans.

00:00:25: and since a large scale, plastic production began in the fifties.

00:00:30: And produced over nine billion tons of plastics... ...and the vast majority of it ended up somewhere on the planet.

00:00:40: We've broken down into smaller fragments….

00:00:43: …in our water, air and

00:00:44: bodies.".

00:00:45: And in two thousand twenty-two, we had one hundred and seventy five nations that agreed to do something about it.

00:00:52: To negotiate a legally binding global plastic treaty with the most ambitious environmental agreement since Paris Accord.

00:01:01: but turning scientific urgency into international law is neither straightforward or fast.

00:01:08: And today we are speaking with Valentin Dettling, a PhD graduate from the Museume Nationale Histoire Naturelle in Paris whose work on microplastic pollution and brought him directly into the earth of those treaty negotiations as both scientists and an advocate for evidence-based policy.

00:01:23: Welcome Valentin!

00:01:26: Can you first present yourself what is your research about?

00:01:30: Yeah,

00:01:32: so yeah my name is Valenda.

00:01:34: I'm French and I am based in Paris.

00:01:40: My major was before biology.

00:01:44: I studied human biology And then i moved to the environmental science for my PhD.

00:01:51: So far my research has been on microplastics in deep sea which is an environmental compartment that we don't hear often about but it's quite interesting because it covers most of the sea floor.

00:02:06: And more specifically, I used marine organisms that were archived in the museum to perform a retrospective study and analyze dynamics of microplastics between the nineteen eighties until today.

00:02:21: but more generally interested in plastic solutions from every perspective

00:02:30: Was it a choice to work with specimens from the museum?

00:02:34: So you could

00:02:35: have an

00:02:36: opportunity for real...

00:02:39: Yeah, I think that was more of an opportunity.

00:02:42: I met my future supervisor at the time and reached out to him because he knew we were doing work on underground disruptors And then I met them.

00:02:55: He told me all about projects I could work with and there was this one that was new, like nothing was done on the subject.

00:03:03: So we had to build it from scratch.

00:03:06: really interested me.

00:03:08: but yeah It was more of an opportunity And i guess maybe because it's a bit original That maybe attracted me.

00:03:17: Sorry about the camp.

00:03:17: by the way You have to join

00:03:20: No worries

00:03:24: Just look back at how did you become interested in plastic and what made you go into that field?

00:03:34: moving, I wanted to move away from human biology because i liked it but felt like we were studying the consequences of disease and not causes.

00:03:45: And then realized that one main cause for those diseases would be environmental factors or disturbances caused by humans such as pollution.

00:03:55: so yeah he got to investigate more this field.

00:04:01: I didn't really want to work with plastic, it was more the opportunity that led me to work.

00:04:06: With plastics.

00:04:08: and yeah at first it was pollution because um It wasn't a crossroads of many disciplines including biology which was my major And then my supervisor who has more working on the grind disruptors had these subjects dealing with uh with plastics.

00:04:24: That's what is new.

00:04:29: I got there and i'm really glad because it's a field that brings together social sciences, biologists, physicists chemists.

00:04:41: It is very nice!

00:04:44: How did you feel about this?

00:04:45: Because first of all, I was also a biologist but didn't know anything about the chemistry part.

00:04:53: how do you feel bringing new science into your fields?

00:05:00: Yeah, I think it can be hard because you don't speak the same language.

00:05:07: Some of them have the same methodologies or the same ways even if writing articles.

00:05:13: so that's a bit confusing at first when dealing with specialists from other fields.

00:05:20: but to me this felt like really how do we say It was good to have some novelty meeting people that had different backgrounds and because I really believe combining disciplines is what can bring us forward more rapidly.

00:05:41: But yeah, it's kind of a challenge because then you have to make more efforts And sometimes we feel confused when learning about the analytical chemistry of plastics and neurobiologists, it can be quite hard to try to catch up.

00:06:00: And so how did your PhD bring you in participating at Global Plastic Treaty during your PhD?

00:06:13: So just before my PhD I was a research assistant on completely different fields between my Masters and the PhD.

00:06:24: In this position, what I did was managing a project in which we brought together academics with non-academics.

00:06:34: We really reached out to the society.

00:06:36: it wasn't early childhood so there's nothing to do about environmental sciences but what i liked is that people who were concerned by our research, but that are not usually in the projects.

00:07:00: That's something I wanted to do with my PhD.

00:07:03: so we tried to have a chapter on this and didn't really manage it.

00:07:08: But at the same time there was negotiation which started... It is very nice because they started as negotiations And it felt like a way to have this sort of interface with the society, try to engage in those negotiations.

00:07:28: But as you may imagine I didn't know how really do that and at some point i discovered there was a group of scientists called the Scientist Coalition for Effective Plastic Streasy.

00:07:47: Yeah, I didn't know really how to reach out them.

00:07:49: and then at the conference i met someone that was a member of this group.

00:07:56: And um...I told her yeah..i would like to join.

00:08:00: it's very nice what they are doing!

00:08:02: Um....and she really helped me trying to join the community and get acquainted with other members so also other french speaking members that are in the coalition but also members in general.

00:08:17: And yeah, so it's with this group of scientists that is called again the scientist coalition.

00:08:22: That I could participate in the plastics treaty.

00:08:26: and yet The opportunity came up and i was really interested In going there to try.

00:08:32: To you were You are a young PhD student?

00:08:46: No Most of the people there were researchers, but some of them were PhD students.

00:08:52: But to be honest most of them are PhD students in political science or sustainability science and we're not much from an experimental science background.

00:09:08: so yeah that was like.

00:09:11: It was so on this part that I had to convince my supervisor.

00:09:15: That it would be nice for me because yeah, they were dealing with the same subject as my PhD but not...it wasn't like anything to do with my dissertation.

00:09:28: But uh Yeah, i guess participating in these negotiations really actually fed my thinking of plastic pollution.

00:09:39: So eventually It had something to do with participating in those negotiations.

00:09:45: When you talk about the non-scientist side of it, how did they take what you say as a scientist?

00:09:53: So... How did they receive this?

00:09:54: Did they take it in good way or did they acknowledge that?

00:09:59: for them just go like above their

00:10:01: head?

00:10:01: Do you mean by the people from the negotiators present at the negotiation?

00:10:09: It's hard to answer like with a yes or no.

00:10:14: I think, i was expecting maybe it would be more difficult have people that actually listen.

00:10:21: you but quite positively in good way were surprised because we engaged the lot of negotiators who are seeking for scientific information that is reliable.

00:10:41: Of course, the countries that are trying to slow down their negotiations and trying... ...that countries do not reach an agreement for it's hard to access them.

00:10:52: but for countries who really want to move forward with a process they were listening But then did we actually implement what tell them, it can be hard to tell but some of the time in their statements they would use information that we brought to them.

00:11:16: So actually its a good feeling because then you felt like your making difference.

00:11:25: Yeah I feel like there is always struggle.

00:11:29: It's just you as PhD student and room full of researchers And non-researchers and policy makers, and stakeholders.

00:11:38: It's good to see that there are people out who want make a difference.

00:11:44: so it is nice.

00:11:45: As scientists do you feel like You need to represent more?

00:11:52: Your research?

00:11:53: or right now at the stage with the plastic treaty Is there reasonable inclusion from scientist?

00:12:01: they could be more.

00:12:02: You mean whether scientists should be more included in the negotiations?

00:12:07: Yeah, so what's striking for me?

00:12:11: is there no official body of scientist that is nominated by United Nations.

00:12:20: It really a process driven by member states and there are no scientific group people who are nominated to help.

00:12:32: We are there as observers, so they're the member states and us the observers.

00:12:38: So we are at on the same level other stakeholders for example industry but also NGOs where like it's not value in terms of access to rooms or delegates.

00:12:58: But yeah, but then in the future they could be a scientific organ.

00:13:04: If there is treaty that could be scientists that are nominated to try to advise member states regarding plastic pollution science?

00:13:18: At the moment there's none and for me at the beginning it was shocking actually if we weren't here who would bring science to the table, you know.

00:13:36: And for you how did... You think it was difficult to translate your scientific findings into political jargon?

00:13:44: Was it hard speak with them or...?

00:13:49: Yeah I mean It's hard because of course we have make the science accessible, like when you do science popularization for example.

00:14:00: so you have to know and prevent using scientific jargon that's for sure.

00:14:07: And I guess the important thing is not hesitate to repeat yourself over the meetings with same people but also in the same meeting because the negotiators they are a lot of mind very busy days, and so when they have a moment to speak with you.

00:14:26: So either in the formal context—so you had an meeting with them or in the corridors —you have to keep that in mind.

00:14:35: even if she said it like two days ago... You'll say this again because of course there are many things to deal with!

00:14:43: And then sometimes what's hard?

00:14:46: Because we prepared these beforehands… What were going to tell us about those talking points?

00:14:52: But what's hard is that they sometimes have very specific questions related to the situations in their own country, for example.

00:14:59: How do economic consequences like if we reduce plastic production and now our country?

00:15:08: What consequence will there be?

00:15:11: And most of time we don't have an answer on these very specific question or for economy-related questions.

00:15:21: don't have members in the coalition who, we don't many people that work with this stuff Jack.

00:15:28: So what are trying to do is try and bring more people from these research community.

00:15:33: but I believe there's a key always trying go back them like say i dont know yet ,but will look for details because yeah...we don't everything And then provide an answer so that they see we are reliable, you know.

00:15:52: Give them hope!

00:15:53: Yes

00:15:55: And when your speaking about the negotiators is it like a lot of negotiator from different countries.

00:16:01: or do you have for example... You were on the French team So only speak with the French negotiator?

00:16:09: Or us?

00:16:12: Yeah first When I say I use the we a lot and not i because like for instance my uh yeah just to have maybe a quicker...I'm gonna answer your question.

00:16:29: We had different rules when were there, some people who are there since come here and so they are also researchers that are more advanced than there are more maybe confident as well who talk to a lot of delegations like in bilaterals.

00:16:49: So, we have meetings with I don't know Chile, Morocco etc... And so they're the ones that talk most about delegates from many countries!

00:17:04: We actually have contacts.

00:17:07: But for example, it can be hard to or almost impossible to reach out to Saudi Arabia.

00:17:13: For example which is a country that he's really pushing for very low ambition treaty and yet so go back... So I was more in the room trying take notes less talking to people, but when I was talking with the French speaking countries.

00:17:42: So it's really an asset that we are there like eight or ten French-speaking scientists and its' really good because We even organized events in France In which we made a movie projection followed by informal reception.

00:18:06: And we brought together several French speaking countries, so France but also Canada Belgium and speaking countries .

00:18:16: We have regular contact with them ,and they like the fact that we talk to them in french because all of the negotiation sessions are not always translated.

00:18:29: So you had plenty of research that are in English and translated into the United Nations languages.

00:18:36: But then, smaller meetings called contact groups where they discuss like this substance of future treaty.

00:18:46: it's an English.

00:18:47: there is no recording or translation service And thats also why we go to take notes because we want know whats happening there.

00:18:55: so observers can go on taking notes but yeah its full english.

00:19:01: you have smaller delegations, such as in African-speaking countries that are there and first of all cannot be every room.

00:19:10: So they have difficulties to manage but also not confident other country like make interventions or follow everything because it can last until the middle of night.

00:19:30: And so us being there, speaking in French it's kind of I think a relief for them to have easy conversations.

00:19:39: To feel at home!

00:19:41: Yeah and as the french-speaking people we are glad too...to have these specific assets and its same with Spanish speaking members of the coalitions.

00:19:57: like every language

00:20:00: It's a bit of shame that they expect people from different countries to come but don't provide

00:20:08: translations for the groups.

00:20:10: Yes, because it is something called Chatham House Rules and in this room everything said isn't being recorded so that countries feel more free.

00:20:27: And so in the same way, we are not supposed to go out of the room and say China said this like that.

00:20:36: So yes there's a reason why they try to limit everything every... Try to avoid their translation services.

00:20:47: but yeah it is a bit of shame because Not every negotiator is fully proficient English.

00:20:55: Some of them, some of the negotiators in smaller delegations.

00:21:00: They deal with the plastic treaty but they also deal with every other environmental processes.

00:21:07: so which is an issue for them to try and fully participate in their way that we want too.

00:21:18: I have a very stupid or technical question.

00:21:20: it's not part policy room, like I've been tourist but not involved in it.

00:21:31: What exactly happens in a negotiation?

00:21:33: Like can you give us an idea of just the listeners and also to us as scientists who might want be part of this future?

00:21:41: what exactly happened?

00:21:43: Yeah that...I don't think your question is stupid at all.

00:21:47: we are never confronted with that in our field.

00:21:56: So I wasn't there in the first step of the process, so i don't really know what happened with negotiations.

00:22:08: But at the beginning it's procedural talks like they're trying to agree on which and how if they vote or not going to vote.

00:22:20: this can take several days that they agree.

00:22:25: It's really like administrative at first, at least for the Plastics Treaty.

00:22:30: And then they try to gather members' proposals of elements that things should be in the treaty.

00:22:40: so there is an online platform and members submit a proposal.

00:22:46: but to be more specific on my side I participated in last two sessions which were supposed So INC five, which was supposed to be the last one in Republic of Korea.

00:22:59: In November twenty-twenty four and then it's maybe It didn't I didn't say that before but um You were supposed to end in twenty-four.

00:23:10: Then it was res resumes in Geneva Last year.

00:23:14: in August two twenty-five And it was still not finished.

00:23:18: so they're gonna continue Probably in March.

00:23:22: twenty twenty seven.

00:23:24: The same session is still running.

00:23:27: It's not like another one, it's the same but it's paused and then resumed.

00:23:32: And why?

00:23:35: Because people don't come to an agreement They can't find common grounds or consensus between members.

00:23:46: To go back on your question From INCFIs in which I was There were something called a zero draft.

00:23:56: So there is a chair of the process who proposed their first text.

00:24:02: that was, had a lot of brackets.

00:24:04: so every countries can modify...can alter the texts by using...by saying okay no I don't want this sentence i want this instead.

00:24:14: or uh..I agree or disagree and with every proposal put together, so it can be like almost unreadable.

00:24:25: And at the beginning of INC-V I think... I don't remember but maybe it was ninety pages for the full text which is huge because there should be a couple of pages.

00:24:40: and then during INC V they gather in contact groups where Basically, the treaty is broken into smaller pieces.

00:24:50: So they're going to say this group will deal with This part of a treaty while these groups we'll deal with another party.

00:25:01: How do I choose that group?

00:25:03: Is it like a mix off the Scientist industry and then try to make them

00:25:10: together or in the groups?

00:25:11: It's really the member states so the negotiators.

00:25:17: So it's not even because the process is led by The United Nations Environment Program, but they are just here to facilitate the process.

00:25:28: But its really member states that are discussing the content of the treaty and then break down in articles similar.

00:25:38: for example on my side I followed a lot contact group which dealt with articles linked releases and leakages, which is one article for the moment on just transition.

00:25:54: On existing plastic pollution... I can't remember about last time but they try to put together similar topics of the treaty.

00:26:05: And then there are facilitators in each of these contact groups And the facilitators will say, okay today we're going to look at article number seven which is on releases and leakages.

00:26:22: Do you have any inputs?

00:26:23: So...and then every member states raise their flags!

00:26:30: As I said before.

00:26:31: so i disagree with this part.

00:26:33: We want to say these and some of them are mistakes.

00:26:39: I agree with China.

00:26:42: They all raise their flag to say whether they agree or not, so it can be very long and sometimes it's scheduled for three hours but it lasts five-six hours.

00:26:59: Sometimes there are some breaks Luckily, but when you're not used to it.

00:27:06: as for us scientists.

00:27:08: It's very disturbing at first too You know like how are they gonna manage?

00:27:13: To reach an agreement?

00:27:17: But uh...but its actually quite interesting to see the dynamics because sometimes They go talk another country in The meeting and then they try like there are some strategic influence during the meetings.

00:27:35: And sometimes also, something a bit fun which is called informal.

00:27:40: so at some points when they don't manage to reach an agreement A lot of member states go see other ones and start being in formal settings.

00:27:53: So that's not raising their hands for talk anymore.

00:27:57: and so yeah then it's kind of little groups in the room trying to reach out, to reach some agreements together.

00:28:04: And they do that because uh... It's easier to do this while nobody listens to you or you have a room full of other member states but also filled with observers like us, NGOs and industry Of course.

00:28:22: So, but yeah actually

00:28:28: from this experience what did you learn both professionally and also personally?

00:28:35: I'm so glad to have met with the person who got me into The Coalition because it's really a deepened first my interest in the subject which i was very interested in at first.

00:28:50: But then uh um It was so nice that work on plastic pollution, but who are from different fields.

00:29:01: So it was really interesting because they give you ideas... not ideas ...but like their perspective and the issue which is really enriching But also being at negotiations one of the actions we do writes policy briefs on the various subjects related to plastic pollution.

00:29:28: And, uh... On my side I participated not in many of them but i had an opportunity To read some comments because it's a process where every member can read and amend the policy brief.

00:29:46: So reading this and being surrounded by members from every discipline, it really I think expanded my knowledge on plastic pollution which you cannot really have just by reading the literature.

00:30:05: And so yeah professionally again It made me touch upon The science policy work Which i didn't know about and now my career in this direction.

00:30:21: So even if it's an academia, I really want to have some projects dealing with the science policy and also as well knowing how environmental negotiations work is nice because then you know why sometimes its hard for countries are very motivated.

00:30:43: what are drivers of?

00:30:46: what can prevent them from moving forward.

00:30:50: So yeah, and personally it was nice because when I was there as well how did i hand it up here?

00:31:00: I never thought that would be there.

00:31:02: so its kind of like...I'm proud to participate in such events even though my contribution is rather small but still

00:31:17: Every contribution counts.

00:31:20: Yeah, let's say that yeah

00:31:24: Well I think it is the only thing we can say right now like no matter how much you try everything that we do counts towards science.

00:31:32: That for sure and also sorry personally as well to meet people from all around the world.

00:31:39: You don't... Like in my lab they were Not so many people coming from abroad and being in the treaty negotiations, even with scientists but not only the scientists.

00:31:52: you meet with people all around the world.

00:31:56: And this issue of plastic pollution don't have the same dimensions whether you live in France or whether you are an indigenous scientist or if you live in Asia, for example.

00:32:12: So it was really personally nice to get to know people from everywhere.

00:32:23: You as an early career ocean professional in plastic research did have any advice for young professionals who are interested following your footsteps?

00:32:34: Yeah, I mean if by footsteps you're participating in like similar negotiations for example.

00:32:42: Similar negotiations or your type of research and

00:32:47: whether it's a good field?

00:32:48: For the negotiation part... In my experience at first i was a bit hesitating And there were some censoring myself to get there, but I guess you shouldn't hesitate to reach out to people that are actually involved in those processes if it's something that interests you.

00:33:15: Because yeah most of the time maybe we won't answer... But from then on some will see your motivation and bring you onboard with them.

00:33:24: so i would say do not go for it don't hesitate even at least to try, right?

00:33:34: And yeah in the field again what I really like is you have to discuss and deal with many disciplines.

00:33:45: Like truly being interdisciplinary...and i think it's a good feel for that.

00:33:54: Yeah, and there's also so much to do because it is quite a plastic pollution research field.

00:34:10: So which can be frustrating sometimes you don't have as much knowledge in other fields but then that has the lot to do!

00:34:21: It was quite cool.

00:34:22: It's not

00:34:25: a question now I'm just thinking how... difficult can it be to say yes?

00:34:33: To a treaty like because its plastic.

00:34:36: It's been there for so long.

00:34:38: we know the effects, they can see everywhere and humans too.

00:34:43: but how difficult.

00:34:44: Can you just say Yes to a Treaty And just

00:34:47: yeah Yeah is

00:34:49: Just The fact that How can A country knowing You have the evidence in front of you decide to pause Like

00:34:57: yeah You mean like it's like More Reflections.

00:35:02: How could the country say no?

00:35:04: But I guess there are so many financial interests like dealing with fossil fuel because plastics, large majority of plastics is made from fossil fuels.

00:35:19: So they're really strong economic interest by... If you say we reduce production where it means that will be an economical loss for countries producing plastics at least, but for so and yes.

00:35:36: that's why they're trying to cover the evidence.

00:35:41: And what is important is try to reach out countries which are still hesitating because there some countries very ambitious and realized it was an important issue.

00:35:54: They don't know whether it's a good decision for the country, or again in terms of economics.

00:36:05: So I guess our work now will be to try and show what would be positive economic outcomes if we move away from plastics?

00:36:16: What can you bring?

00:36:18: those countries that are... Yeah they're hesitant.

00:36:26: We'd like to thank you very much, Valenta for saying yes in the interview and being interviewed.

00:36:37: And we hope that questions weren't too much.

00:36:40: I hope you enjoyed talking about your research.

00:36:43: Yeah no worries it was a great opportunity.

00:36:47: Thank you so much for asking me to come participate.

00:36:52: So glad to chat with you.

00:36:54: Can be maybe an expert on plastics by now but So whenever she talks to me sometimes about her experience, I'm not sure.

00:37:04: It's the same with Julia also!

00:37:07: That is true.

00:37:08: but that why you need to have an interdisciplinary aspect right?

00:37:13: How do you translate the evidence?

00:37:16: so thank you very much.