Camille & Rhea | Tourism in Antarctica

00:00:05: Good morning, good afternoon or good evening.

00:00:08: Today is episode fourteen in the Gen Z podcast with your hosts Rhea and Camille.

00:00:14: So today's episode focuses on tourism in Antarctica.

00:00:18: And before I tell you why let's stop at a small court Or a small Let's say lesson to bring you into the feeling as to why we chose this particular topic For our listeners and also for us.

00:00:30: if you stepped off a ship onto Antarctica right now What's the first thing that would hit your senses?

00:00:37: The smell, the sound of the cold.

00:00:43: And I think personally if i had to answer it will be the cold because I'm very sensitive To different temperatures.

00:00:50: So yeah coming from India Yeah...the cold will hit me like a brick.

00:00:54: so If I were to say my fantastic right now..I feel the cold.

00:00:57: what about you Kevin ?

00:00:58: I don't think It Would Be Also the Same Because Right Now In France We Have A Huge Heat Wave And right now I really need cold.

00:01:05: so, i think it will be this but beside the heat wave thing.

00:01:11: The first thing for me maybe would be the smell... I've never been there But i think the smell can be very different.

00:01:21: So yeah

00:01:23: Something like that If our listeners are interested as to why we chose this topic and also what Kimmy pointed out with recent heat waves in Europe and how, let's say things are not going so well with climate change all over the world.

00:01:39: We decided to focus on a hot topic which has always been our hot topic but it is getting even more important right now Is How Climate Change Has Affected One Of The Most Let'S Say Fragile Ecosystems On The Planet Which Is One of The Polls In Antarctica.

00:01:56: And in Antarctica With Climate Change we also see an increase in tourism.

00:02:01: We all know what tourism is and what tourism can do to countries, but Antarctica which technically not a country.

00:02:08: It's the continent Tourism affects it in very different ways.

00:02:12: So just start off with this.

00:02:13: we have prepared some questions that people love To answer.

00:02:17: I also get everyone opinion about it.

00:02:19: so to start of coming let's go.

00:02:22: So in Antarctica?

00:02:23: We had now more than one hundred thousand visitors In the single recent season its Ten times more than thirty years ago.

00:02:33: And when you hear this number, what is your good reaction as a scientist?

00:02:40: I think it's just the wow and the sigh because hundred... More then one-hundred thousand visitors in a single season!

00:02:48: Yeah.. I think compared to when i was a kid ,i think its like ten or fifteen times even more.

00:02:55: so yeah im very concerned about it and also alarmed as to, yeah.

00:03:04: I'm at a loss of words.

00:03:05: Do you have anything to add?

00:03:09: I think it's very concerning especially that we already know human activity has strong impact on environments Especially like in this.

00:03:26: Oh, wow.

00:03:27: I don't have my words but in this more sensitive environment so they can talk to each other and the effect could be more important?

00:03:36: Climate change is something that we kind of grew up with because we're like millennial Gen Zs.

00:03:42: So you've always heard about the term.

00:03:45: But yeah it's reached a point where its inner faces We know there are problems And who knows what reason behind them keeps becoming a problem.

00:03:55: and I yeah.

00:03:57: But anyways, i will stop my rambling and let's get off to the first segment that we have is why everyone suddenly wants to go?

00:04:05: And what we think could be the reason behind it.

00:04:09: so there's a term for this.

00:04:10: It's called last chance tourism.

00:04:13: can you explain what that means and What does it make sense to you emotionally and scientifically?

00:04:22: That's very interesting.

00:04:23: when Ria and I were thinking about all the subjects we wanted to talk about.

00:04:29: It was the idea of Ria talked about tourism in Antarctica, that was very funny because it wasn't one my subject during my master The last chance tourism that can have in Antarctica.

00:04:44: So yeah We had a lot of work on this January typical term that actually appears quite recently around the two thousand ten something like That's.

00:04:56: and so yet The meaning behind this This expression is too To say that In these very specific environment we know that We have climate change in that you can possibly not see this place Like that in maybe twenty years thirty years.

00:05:17: And so it's like you are in the final years of this magical place and So, It is a last chance to see it.

00:05:26: Of course!

00:05:27: This is my dream because I think its very beautiful places but i know that can have an impact.

00:05:39: I don't know how much it will cost, but i think its very expensive.

00:05:44: But i would not pay that even if i had the money because you can have a huge impact on this.

00:05:50: I feel like it only... Can be accessed by the rich?

00:05:55: The

00:05:56: whole last chance tourism

00:05:59: concept.

00:05:59: There is a huge question behind it Because of course It's only the rich and the rich are most people on earth or not to reach.

00:06:08: So of course it's not a huge number, but its still important and we know also that the rich people have made major impact on earth.

00:06:19: It is quite concerning actually.

00:06:21: Yeah

00:06:22: so you had to answer what does... Does this make sense emotionally as well scientifically?

00:06:26: No I'm sorry.

00:06:29: yeah

00:06:30: Definitely

00:06:32: Like.

00:06:32: i get their idea behind it That You don't want to miss out on seeing your place that exists right now, but will not exist in a few years.

00:06:40: But I also don't want to...I also wanna be able to see Hogwarts and Narnia!

00:06:49: For me it's like okay.

00:06:50: if its exist right now then there is potential chance by you going investing the chances of it not existing become even more higher than before?

00:07:01: Then dont let this stay.

00:07:03: But I think that's a thought process.

00:07:05: Many people don't agree with it and there is probably also why these things are happening.

00:07:10: Yeah, makes sense!

00:07:11: Also like...I wanted to ask you the question because You had an opportunity actually for your PhD And i wanted know your opinion about it but We knew that science has impact on climate change With the lab & everything and also with the cruise.

00:07:32: What is your feeling about it, actually?

00:07:35: Immediately as you think like a scientist and its for your PhD.

00:07:38: It's for work.

00:07:39: I was like yes!

00:07:40: But when i went there in the way that saw how things were being done The amount of plastic build up Let us say trash build-up The amount crew members that you need, the amount of oil.

00:07:55: There are so many things on this list.

00:08:00: humane parts of me was like, wait a minute.

00:08:04: As a scientist I get to go there but it's still sort-of last chance.

00:08:07: tourism Like.

00:08:09: as scientists we got that because It is the Last Chance in our way and We have the privilege To Go There Because We're Doing Science In A Developed Country That Has The Money To Do It.

00:08:21: So that Was Something That I fought with a lot And i think when I came back from the cruise If I get the chance to go to the pause, I don't think i'm gonna do it again.

00:08:32: Like for my morality... ...I am good!

00:08:35: I've done this once.

00:08:37: Am I happy about that?

00:08:38: Yes definitely but will you do it now ?

00:08:45: I like these questions a lot.

00:08:46: Do You Think Watching A Glacier Break In Person Changes How Someone Thinks About Climate Change More Than Reading About It?

00:08:54: Does

00:08:55: I Think Right Now With How The World Is I don't think it's going to change someone's mind.

00:09:01: Yeah, i agree with you

00:09:03: But as a scientist we would feel differently.

00:09:06: yeah of course but like for someone that is already sceptic skeptical about climate change I think he will never change his mind.

00:09:19: It's always very complicated To have access these people and try to change their minds That its actually real.

00:09:28: I don't think that this image could change.

00:09:29: Maybe some?

00:09:30: There are too many skeptics out there

00:09:32: Yeah, but they're still a lot.

00:09:35: Like almost every day i see like a rail on insta about some conspiracy theorist or something He's like.

00:09:42: oh climate change is a myth Climate change isn't a myth Tourism is not a problem and im like

00:09:48: bro.

00:09:52: So no, I think you're right Camille.

00:09:54: As a scientist i immediately would feel bad about it but other people...I don't think so!

00:09:59: It depends person to person.

00:10:00: and now it's

00:10:02: true.

00:10:02: But also the role of scientists is know how to get access To these people..to tell them that we are saying the truth actually But its very hard work to do.

00:10:19: the scientists know that they have to reach to the general people and a lot of people are trying to do more and more mediation, stuff like that.

00:10:29: To...to know what the science is saying actually?

00:10:33: And that the science it's true.

00:10:37: but yes I think its also important even as a scientist if you do communicate these facts It has.

00:10:42: so be in way that You're not telling the person What to Do.

00:10:48: Because a lot of people, and let's say most of the people have ego.

00:10:52: And if you tell them what to do or how to do it they're not gonna...and then they revolt against you!

00:10:57: They are like oh..you telling me what I'm going to do?

00:10:59: I am NOT GONNA DO IT!

00:11:01: They always look at scientists as people who know it all.

00:11:04: but yeah we do for our living.

00:11:07: We do because we want to learn more.

00:11:11: So i think that also depends on how the scientist communicates The facts in a gentle way and be like yeah it's not going to only affect you, its also gonna effect your future generations.

00:11:23: Your kids and your kid's kids.

00:11:27: well enough about things breaking.

00:11:31: let's move on to the invisible passengers.

00:11:33: Kimi what do think i'm talking about when I say invisible passengers?

00:11:41: I like these words.

00:11:44: this is true that we are more talking.

00:11:50: But for me when I heard this More speaking about the stuff that we don't see like, for example The endemic plants are very tiny and they're still very important And also because We have tourists who come to the ground To see visible

00:12:10: passengers.

00:12:11: They walk on the ground and can destroy a lot of

00:12:14: vegetation

00:12:16: And also by walking on the ground, they can bring a lot of diseases and also ring invasive species.

00:12:23: So it can have a real impact on the Antarctic.

00:12:28: actually Yeah!

00:12:30: It's funny because we've seen proofs of invasive species before in other island countries.

00:12:38: but for some reason Antarctica is never a problem.

00:12:44: I mean, they're putting a lot of... for the scientists' side.

00:12:49: Sorry!

00:12:50: A lot of precaution and some of the crews are trained to have discussions with the scientist in order know how less effects on ground.

00:13:02: but you can also have companies that don't really care about it.

00:13:05: actually

00:13:06: Yeah no i remember like even when we had to get off land during the expedition We had do complete check up.

00:13:13: We had to wear all protective equipment before embarking and also coming back onto the ship.

00:13:19: Everything has to be properly protected, yeah.

00:13:22: Protected and clean I imagine?

00:13:25: Yes sterilized Yeah.

00:13:28: And so Fria you've spent your PhD studying Antarctic microbes.

00:13:34: What would surprise a tourist about what's actually living in that pristine ice water?

00:13:40: Well, I guess it depends on how curious the tourist is to see microscopic things.

00:13:47: If they prefer to see bigger visible animals then yeah obviously they're not going to be interested in the ice and water.

00:13:55: but i think if there would- Would be interesting... The first thing that you will see are so many different types of bacteria That you'll find just one little one ml sample Just One ml And You Will See Thousands of bacteria and plantain.

00:14:14: And I think it's also interesting that i find more interesting in these kind of samples coming from the poles, and Antarctica is said this microorganisms or bacteria have been trapped... ...and because their ice is melting we have different forms of bacteria that are coming out through the ice that humankind hasn't seen before let's say Or they've seen but in different parts of the world.

00:14:40: And so for me that's the most interesting part is, somehow or other it like a bit of fossil.

00:14:44: Like living fossil let say?

00:14:46: The ice...

00:14:47: Like indiana drones!

00:14:49: Yes I was thinking same.

00:14:51: yes like indiana drone and yes because the ice is melting all these bacteria and plankton are suddenly alive and fascinating Because in a way you can also learn as to how they survived In those extreme conditions.

00:15:06: what did they do to survive?

00:15:07: And yeah, that's just me being annoyed about bacteria but I will stop now.

00:15:12: I know the question... That was what we didn't discuss before But a lot of people are saying that lots of bacteria are released by the melting of ice.

00:15:23: Are they going to be dangerous for humans?

00:15:26: I guess it depends on the type of bacteria.

00:15:29: Usually not!

00:15:31: Usually i would assume no.

00:15:33: So yes It is possible.

00:15:35: from whatever i've read uh worked with.

00:15:38: no it's mostly bacteria that there is no e coli like bacteria let's say.

00:15:43: It's mostly back to here, that has more like good harm i don't know.

00:15:46: plants and everything but not generally humans.

00:15:51: so we are safe

00:15:53: for now.

00:15:54: oh no.

00:15:56: So the recent news We saw the ships are being watched closely after a recent hentai virus outbreak on a cruise this year And I'm guessing all of our listeners have heard about it and read about.

00:16:08: Do you think that would change how people should think of a biosecurity on these trips?

00:16:13: I don't think so, especially because we have also the covid-nineteen thing.

00:16:20: yeah then we had this entire virus.

00:16:22: i think right now People know That We can Have some Some Epidemic Episodes like that.

00:16:30: Yeah They Would Care A lot I Don't Know.

00:16:33: I will say Even though people shouldn't think about it, It can be scary.

00:16:37: Yeah

00:16:38: true!

00:16:40: It Can Be Pretty Scary To Think About That.

00:16:42: You're Trapped On A Ship And Suddenly Someone Has A Viral Disease and you are stuck on the ship with them.

00:16:50: Everyone has to be in quarantine and you cant call Because your

00:16:55: In The Middle Of The Sea So You Can't Call Anyone

00:16:58: In The middle of nowhere.

00:16:59: that's like a end-of-the-world movie Like the day after tomorrow, I always think about that movie.

00:17:05: I don't know why... I love that movie!

00:17:08: So now we move to our next segment which is one of my favorite segments that i want to talk about Science vs Souvenir.

00:17:17: Can Tourism Help Research in Antarctica?

00:17:21: Some tour operators partner with scientists or fund monitoring programs?

00:17:28: Is tourism ever actually good for Antarctic science?

00:17:32: I think i'm too biased for this question, especially because I worked with it.

00:17:37: So i'm going to give it to you.

00:17:38: just started off and then i'll give my comments!

00:17:42: Yeah...I wanted to specify something about this question because I think its not to terrorize those operators partners Because actually they are important as the boats need very specific to be able to navigate in these areas.

00:18:01: And this is true that public society does not always have the chance to have specific votes, because it can be very expensive.

00:18:09: But we bring into the same thing as before.

00:18:15: these two operators are very expensive and its only rich people who will get access to knowledge and experience sometimes for me feels tricky Because I think the world is not made only about rich people and that everyone deserves to know about it.

00:18:37: So yeah, so It's in a sense important to have them but sometimes Yeah,

00:18:45: if they favor us as certain group of people.

00:18:49: You know because I was thinking about this when I was looking at the questions And I was like why?

00:18:57: Can't we ask universities or like funding agencies to do programs where you can fund students?

00:19:06: Or interested students as part of their master's, PhD.

00:19:10: To go on these ships with tourists and in a way it is give-and-take research transfer.

00:19:20: so the students learn about how this works.

00:19:24: Tourism ships are not toxic anyway.

00:19:25: tourist also learns what they student does In science and in a way they both are educated because I don't want it to be that It becomes a divide between the science scientist And their citizens.

00:19:39: Yeah, has to be an in combination.

00:19:42: what you told me about the thing right in France there's

00:19:46: The tourism.

00:19:48: They we don't have any icebreaker on friends so they use them.

00:19:54: Usually had a lot of scientists working with the Conan crews not to cite them, but I'm citing then.

00:20:01: And so yeah we they are doing the science and tourists can go check what they're doing... The scientific on board have to make presentation for people that aren't accrued

00:20:17: including the tourist

00:20:20: with the tourists.

00:20:21: as i

00:20:21: said it's

00:20:23: only rich people who get access Yeah,

00:20:28: but if it helps indicating the rich yeah.

00:20:31: Yeah true

00:20:33: Well speaking about education of choice could everyday tourists become useful citizen science and would you trust the data?

00:20:42: I mean think citizens science is important Especially for come thinking about plastic sorry.

00:20:51: No

00:20:53: no So much plastic around the world, so if everyone can take plastic saying that oh I took that amount of plastic from there then you can draw a map Of everything because one scientist cannot do it for the whole world.

00:21:09: It's very interesting I think for Antarctica also we could be interested in depending on what can work.

00:21:19: But

00:21:19: didn't they find nanoplastics in Antarctica?

00:21:25: I read the paper and they found

00:21:28: some statistics everywhere.

00:21:30: You can do research everywhere now,

00:21:32: but it's super complicated to ask tourists that okay go there.

00:21:35: And yeah i don't know.

00:21:37: in science communication They can definitely help.

00:21:39: before that they need to be convinced of the science To be able to communicate.

00:21:44: so we need to convince them with proof and

00:21:47: find a question.

00:21:48: Ria you spend time doing field work?

00:21:52: There And what's something to discuss completely wrong about?

00:21:56: What research life is actually like, uh...

00:22:00: The only thing I can think of was when my family and friends talked.

00:22:03: When they told me that yeah i'm gonna go they're like oh it's like vacation!

00:22:07: No this is no vacation!

00:22:12: It's a bit worse than the vacation for the field work.

00:22:17: Yeah because once I came back You were working twenty four hours every day and everyday was different to the previous.

00:22:28: And you're exposed to conditions that are not prepared for back home because they need to take samples at irregular hours, you needs to be awake at regular hours...you need to be prepared for the worst..and sometimes things don't go according to plan.

00:22:44: so we have a Plan B or a Plan C And sometimes you also need to carry samples in the cold and from point A, to Point B In rough environments.

00:22:54: So no I don't think it was... The best memory i have From the fieldwork is seeing the penguins.

00:23:03: That's the only happy memory that we had on vacation day.

00:23:11: We could just do what he wanted without having to worry about science and so then we got to spend time with the penguins.

00:23:16: So I think that's only vacation day i had, but other than that it was definitely eye-opening in a way that...I didn't think that I would be able to handle certain things But I still did it!

00:23:30: You're forced to handle them.

00:23:32: It is very happy about that.

00:23:33: you need to sacrifice a lot of things as scientists because your not prepared for it for the worst.

00:23:43: And also, I think it's very important to say that you don't have your space for yourself like always with everyone talking about science.

00:23:54: Yes!

00:23:55: There is no meeting.

00:23:56: Yeah

00:23:58: there absolutely not...I cannot remember a single day where i had me time

00:24:02: No?

00:24:02: Because

00:24:04: you're..also The other thing that wasn't prepared as seeing my supervisor twenty four seven For more than three months every day.

00:24:15: Having breakfast with her, having lunch with or having dinner with maybe drink sometimes doing fieldwork and lab work And I was like oh my god Yeah!

00:24:25: The other thing that we unfortunately had a problem on the Marion de Fren for the research vessel is there wasn't Wi-Fi.

00:24:34: That's complicated.

00:24:36: So then you can't really escape from boats?

00:24:39: No

00:24:40: So we had no like family time, let's say I couldn't.

00:24:43: It was only voice notes or photos and so with my partner of my parents back in India Like yeah We couldn't call anything.

00:24:50: is that something that i struggled within the beginning because?

00:24:53: I think this social media With the evolution of the internet our phones are like immediately can call someone.

00:24:59: No on board.

00:25:00: it wasn't complete.

00:25:01: So now it was invocation.

00:25:03: Yeah, it definitely helped with my social media addiction.

00:25:07: I was less addicted to social media after i came back so that helps.

00:25:10: but otherwise yeah it wasn't vacation.

00:25:12: Segment four, the governance puzzle Antarctica is governed by a treaty written in nineteen fifty nine.

00:25:22: Boy!

00:25:23: That's old.

00:25:24: Long before mass tourism existed should be rewritten for todays numbers.

00:25:29: what do you think?

00:25:33: As you said its been long time of course updated especially because also in the sixties, tourism was not the same compared to now.

00:25:47: And this treaty of course gives a framework for scientific activities but it says little about the tourist.

00:25:57: like there is almost nothing despite the growth in recent years.

00:26:03: and Where we all are lucky, I think about the tourism is that with the inflation of oil and everything.

00:26:11: The prices are very expensive.

00:26:13: so this kind of tourism will not increase a lot in next years you know?

00:26:22: The thing

00:26:23: that I wanted

00:26:31: to say?

00:26:32: I'm kidding, it's just funny.

00:26:38: But still we have tourists who go there.

00:26:40: so the pressure is still present.

00:26:43: and where you had most concerns to have was this treaty will end in two thousand fifty years almost And we don't know if it's going to be reconduct, actually.

00:27:02: Also the fact that people have a growing interest in the potential of mineral resources... We can have big debates about this treaty.

00:27:14: I think next year and also If you want make changes on this treaty It will take a lot more time.

00:27:23: So we had discussion with Plastic Treaty but time to write a treaty?

00:27:30: I do remember talks being taking place about, yeah we need to be changed to the Treaty or redevelop it again and check us too.

00:27:40: Yeah how can we make sure that Antarctica is protected?

00:27:42: but everyone keeps talking about it... But not much work has been done.

00:27:47: so i do agree like yeah, twenty fifty is not that far away!

00:27:50: And if its made in the sixties Before my mom was made parents were born.

00:27:59: So yeah,

00:28:01: but I don't know how it's going to To be and also because I don' see a lot of people talking about this treaty actually so i dont think its in the papers Of the political People.

00:28:18: well some scientists are calling for visitor caps or no-go zones.

00:28:23: What do you thing?

00:28:24: Yeah, I think it's important to add that because i don't think with the next treaty if we have a next treaty um... That they are going to band completely the tourism.

00:28:35: So I think its' important that scientists are listened by uh... By the operators and the tourists And also beacause..I think knowledge of the scientist can help to determine which regions are suitable for tourist and which should remain protected because they are maybe more sensitive to the tourism.

00:29:04: And I think it's also important to include this scientific expertise in these decisions, to ensure a good management of the tourism.

00:29:15: but yeah...I hope that scientists could be listened!

00:29:22: Yeah, I think at this point with the way that world is going and there's so many different types of consequences of climate change people need to start listening.

00:29:32: There's a reason we do the science.

00:29:35: It's not just for us it also helps others.

00:29:38: but now before you move on to the rapid fire Kimmy i have question for

00:29:43: ya.

00:29:44: If u had chance go to Antarctica would you?

00:29:48: I mean, for me it could be a huge dream because i'm also fan of the penguins.

00:29:59: It's going to have big debates in my mind.

00:30:02: For real!

00:30:03: As a tourist if you had like a lot of money and would say no because they have stronger opinion on this but as a scientist well...it is gonna be a big debate

00:30:21: I don't know.

00:30:21: Well, that's sort of answered our first rapid-fire question.

00:30:24: but yeah... I wanted to put you on the spot for some time To see how he would react.

00:30:30: Rapid fire.

00:30:32: One word gut reaction.

00:30:34: A cruise ship in Antarctica Thrilling or troubling?

00:30:39: On the scientist position i will say Troubling Of course if we didn't care about the climate.

00:30:46: oh my god.

00:30:47: yes I'm so excited to go there but no, i am too aware about the stuff that is happening.

00:30:54: So now it's definitely troubling.

00:30:58: Would you personally go as a tourist or does being a scientist ruin your fantasy?

00:31:06: I will let you answer that Camille because I already sort of voiced my opinions going back then

00:31:20: And I don't think that as a tourist, uh...I would be that happy.

00:31:29: Because i will be aware for example this can be removed in ten years.

00:31:39: So

00:31:40: it's good to ruin your fantasy but you still see the reality.

00:31:45: so if you design the perfect responsible Antarctic tour What's the one thing it should absolutely include?

00:31:55: Well, something also that we discussed a bit.

00:31:58: But I think citizen science is important and I think... The scientists have the duty to talk with them To express what are their impacts on them.

00:32:15: So i think its really important

00:32:19: for us.

00:32:21: This is for Eurea, penguins or microbes.

00:32:25: Which one is Antarctica's real MVP?

00:32:31: It's a very difficult question.

00:32:33: if you'd asked me three years before I would have answered microbes but right now it's penguins.

00:32:37: i'm sorry hands down!

00:32:39: It has to be the cutest animals to ever survive...

00:32:45: Yeah we hope they're advised because microbes are not like.

00:32:49: I mean not animals but like with a face and

00:32:52: yeah, they're just like spiky.

00:32:54: I don't know microscopic things that don't do much They just swim.

00:32:57: Yeah Whereas penguins you did so cute the way they walk

00:33:01: I think they

00:33:01: did for life Like.

00:33:04: yeah i'm gonna stop nerding about penguins video.

00:33:09: What about you Kimmy?

00:33:11: I think I know your answer already!

00:33:13: I will go like you for the penguins because they are so, so cute.

00:33:18: But you study bacteria day to day?

00:33:21: It's your PhD!

00:33:23: True but it's too much like we saw them every day... So no let's change a bit

00:33:33: and there you go.

00:33:34: that's all for today our listeners And We really hope you enjoyed this hot topic discussion.

00:33:44: If you're interested to know more, You can also read the papers that will be mentioned in our course on Instagram as well As in podcast details.

00:33:51: These are papers we used To build questions and answers.

00:33:56: Let's see a bit of inspiration from them And let us if have any questions See you until next time!

00:34:05: Bye bye.